Episode 93. Virtual Degree, Real-World Opportunity: Texas A&M Online Master’s of Engineering Offers Recipients New Career Options.

Allan Rutter (00:14):
Howdy, everyone. Welcome to Thinking Transportation–conversations about how we get ourselves and the stuff we need from one place to another. I’m Allan Rutter with the Texas A&M Transportation Institute.

Allan Rutter (00:28):
This week while speaking to the North Texas chapter of the Association for Supply Chain Management, I met a woman who was months away from completing her master of maritime business administration and logistics from Texas A&M-Galveston. This, after 31 years in public education. While she was ready to retire from education, she was eager to keep working and try something new. Expanding skills during a career and busy life is never easy. But a new program offered by the Texas A&M University Department of Multidisciplinary Engineering aims to help. Here to speak with us about this new master of engineering for transportation professionals are two of my colleagues from TTI, Brianne Glover and Jim Cline. Brianne is Policy Analysis Division head and a licensed attorney, and she specializes in transportation, finance and economics. Jim Cline is the Interdisciplinary Analysis Program manager, a member of TxDOT’s Public Transportation Advisory Committee, and retired from the Texas Army National Guard as a lieutenant colonel with 28 years of military service. Now, before we get into details of this newly instituted master of engineering degree for transportation professionals, let’s set some overall context. Brianne, as the only one on this podcast that passed a bar exam, can you tell our listeners about the legal and structural relationship between the Texas A&M Transportation Institute and The Texas A&M University System?

Brianne Glover (02:02):
Sure, thanks for having me. So, TTI is unique in that we are both an independent state agency and we’re also part of the Texas A&M System. So there’s a couple other state agencies that are similar, AgriLife, TDEM, and the Texas Forest Service. And we’re also one of the three engineering agencies that reports to the Vice Chancellor of Engineering. So, that’s TTI, TEES, and TEEX.

Allan Rutter (02:27):
The Engineering Experiment Station and the Engineering Extension Service, to fill in all the acronyms.

Brianne Glover (02:33):
Yes.

Allan Rutter (02:34):
Now, practically, some of our TTI colleagues teach courses at the Texas A&M University flagship in College Station. Other than this new online degree program, have either of you participated in any classes at A&M?

Jim Cline (02:51):
I participated as helping with a senior civil engineering project. You know, the capstone project. I helped with one of those classes, but that’s the only one here at A&M. I did help on some of the same things at University of Texas at Arlington

Brianne Glover (03:04):
And I’ve guest lectured in a few courses over the years in the Civil Engineering Department, as well as urban planning.

Allan Rutter (03:12):
So, let’s talk about this new master’s degree program. What was the genesis for this?

Jim Cline (03:18):
The dean of engineering reached out to TTI to help provide some of the instructors for a master’s program in transportation. And so, that pulled together several of us that work at TTI to prepare courses and to move forward with that. And one nuance that’s important is, while it was TTI people teaching the class, which brings a lot of practitioners and a lot of practical aspects to this and experience in the field, the course is actually being taught through the main university in the College of Engineering through the Multidisciplinary Engineering Department. And so that was the genesis for it. We pulled this together with a lot of help from ESale, which is the studio at Zachary, which I can’t say enough good about them. They provided excellent help for us, really made it happen. And so it was a great partnership between TTI and the College of Engineering.

Brianne Glover (04:12):
Yeah, and I’ll just add that, you know, they reached out to several of us here at TTI who are subject matter experts on a lot of the topics that these classes are covering, and we were happy to jump in and work on this. It’s a great program.

Allan Rutter (04:26):
So my next question would be what is TTI’s role in this and how are you two involved?

Brianne Glover (04:33):
So TTI was looked at as being those subject matter experts. I focus on finance and economics in my research here at TTI, and so it was a good fit for me to teach courses that touched on those topics. And I think just being folks who are in it every day and doing the actual work out there in the real world on these topics–it was just a no brainer, a good fit.

Jim Cline (04:54):
And you know, part of it, I’ve been back at TTI five years, I was here as a graduate student maybe 150 years ago <laugh>. But I came back after a lot of experience with working at municipalities as either a traffic engineer or a public works director, or I was CEO of a transit authority. And then in my kind of side job, which was in the National Guard, I was up to a battalion commander. So, the course I’m teaching is in transportation organizational management. So, I had a lot of experience with organizations how to pull together budgets; dealing with things like the media. The beauty of this, again with a lot of the practical experience we have, is that, you know, my experience with the media was, unfortunately, sometimes dealing with fatal crashes and having to deal with the in-extremis condition with the media, provide some lessons learned. And you know, I spent a lot of time in my lectures talking about, “please don’t do this. This hurt really bad. You don’t need to do this.” Again, I can explain to you what we <laugh>, you know, I can share with you my pain and suffering so that you don’t have to go through it.

Brianne Glover (05:54):
And so, I’ll just add that going back to your earlier question about how we’re both a state agency and part of the A&M System–I think folks at TTI kind of have a foot in both worlds, right? We’re involved in the research and the everyday issues, but we also have that foot in academia as well.

Allan Rutter (06:10):
Tell me about who’s the target audience for this particular program?

Jim Cline (06:15):
I’ll start off. Most of the folks that we’re targeting here are gonna be people with an engineering background who have probably four years’ experience. And so, that coincides with about the time engineers are applying for or have achieved their license as a professional engineer (or their PE); and really looking for people who are in the workforce, who are seeking the opportunity to have a key staff position or be a leader in that organization. And our first set of students that went through this, I think, are a good example of what we’re targeting. Folks that were licensed engineers that have been out there doing the job and also have families and have a day job and have kids and they have a lot going on. And this is an opportunity for them to pursue a master of engineering degree. You know, we’re not targeting people who are looking to pursue a Ph.D., right? This is a terminal professional degree, it is a master of engineering, full-on from Texas A&M University. But it is really aimed for people that want to improve their skills and take on some of the hard stuff that you don’t learn in a bachelor of science and engineering program.

Brianne Glover (07:21):
Yeah, I agree completely. I kind of think of it as … you know, there are executive MBA programs, right? Who are for folks who are already in the field. And I think of this as sort of something similar and that it’s for folks who are already out there in their career as engineers or just working in the transportation industry in general, sort of looking to move into that leadership position.

Allan Rutter (07:41):
So, talk to me a little bit about the course content for this program.

Brianne Glover (07:45):
Yeah, so as I mentioned before, I taught the transportation and the economy class, and I also co-taught with another instructor, the innovation and transportation funding and finance course. I think we cover a lot of other topics that are, as Jim mentioned earlier, you know, not those specific technical courses like they had in their bachelor’s degree, but things like policy- and leadership-type classes.

Jim Cline (08:11):
Yeah, communication, new technologies… It is a standard master’s program, so it’s got 30 course hours of content. Takes about two years, and it’s framed around having nine courses that you go through plus two one-hour and a two-hour capstone courses, where you do a project and prepare that project for the first semester. We look at that; you pretty much do all the preparatory work for your project and you execute the project in the second semester. So there’ll be the final two semesters of the program.

Allan Rutter (08:45):
So how many students have graduated so far and what’s the kind of mix of their jobs, backgrounds, and ages?

Jim Cline (08:54):
We’ve had five students graduated in the first cohort. Four from TxDOT, one is from TTI. Most are–well we didn’t ask them exactly how old they are–but I think they range from generally early career, one mid-career and one later career. So probably early thirties, forties, and fifties.

Brianne Glover (09:15):
It was really interesting too because they came from all over the state. Some were working in the districts and then some were working, you know, in Austin for specific divisions. And so, it was really interesting to just have the different backgrounds and the different views of how they interpreted the material.

Jim Cline (09:29):
I think that brought some value to the students. Well, it’s asynchronous, meaning that there are no mandatory times that you have to attend a class. We did offer–I think just about all the instructors did–a weekly office hour period. So what we did is once a week we’d meet and review homework assignments, review test materials twice. I brought in guest speakers as an example that are specifically relevant to the students and what questions they had of us.

Brianne Glover (09:57):
And when you say we met, it was via Zoom, which was really nice, be in the evenings. And so we’d just pick a time that worked for everybody, right. And like you said, like office hours, they’d jump on if they had questions or wanted to discuss a specific topic and then, you know, jump off when we were done or if they didn’t need help that week.

Jim Cline (10:13):
Yep.

Allan Rutter (10:14):
So what’s been the feedback from that first cohort of graduates?

Jim Cline (10:19):
I’ve talked to all of them. It was very positive. They’re seeing a good … helping them in their careers.

Brianne Glover (10:26):
Yeah, I had positive feedback as well. They seemed to really like the course material, and that … it was unexpected. it helped them to look at the topic in a different way or some way that brought it in and used it in their everyday career before. And so being able to show them how that might be possible, I think they really got a lot out of that.

Jim Cline (10:44):
Yeah. And in the engineering world, I mean part of what you do is you start off and you’re preparing plans, you’re doing analysis, you’re going back through and looking at the numbers and your boss is worrying about how we’re gonna pay for this project or how we’re gonna relate to the public when we have a public hearing and things like that. And you realize, I gotta learn how to do that stuff to be a boss and to have that leadership role. And so really these classes prep you for that next level in leadership and management.

Allan Rutter (11:15):
So, one of the things you described Jim, was these [classes] as asynchronous. Tell me a little bit about class content. You guys both were instructors for a course, so you developed and prerecorded video. What was that like?

Jim Cline (11:31):
That was a lot. Uh, <laugh> just, you know, it was a, it was a ton of videos, but what we wanted to do is have this set up again, this is really for a working professional. What we mean by asynchronous, there’s a bunch of different ways to do distance learning for a master’s program. Sometimes it’s an individual that you do, there’s not a cohort. In our case we have a cohort, but we don’t have have, say, class meetings, right? There’s not a live lecture that goes with it other than the office hour periods, which are optional. So, you go through and you complete a week’s worth of work, but you can watch those videos at your convenience. You do the homework at your convenience. There’s a window of several days to do tests so that you can fit these things in because you know, as we talked to a lot of our students, life happens and instead of having a fixed classroom to be in three nights a week or three days a week and having to move to a university location to make that happen, this allows that to happen in a very efficient way in terms of being able to cover the course material but do so and still carry on with life as you have.

Brianne Glover (12:35):
Yeah, so like Jim said, it was 14 weeks and we recorded, I don’t know, somewhere probably around four on average videos for each week. They would range in time, you know, around 10 minutes each, 10 to 15 minutes, somewhere in that range. But it was really cool, at least from my perspective as an instructor to pull together all the different types of media for them to look at each week. So we’d have these videos where they got to listen to me talk, you know, or wax eloquently about, you know, a specific topic. But I also would throw in different articles and reading material for them to look at podcasts, to listen to, you know, something like this on a particular transportation topic. And then just other videos or pieces from conferences of different people speaking so that they could get sort of a well-rounded wealth of material on a particular topic. And then each week they’d have, you know, some sort of homework assignment. And those were really cool. We’d have them do mock grant applications or say a transportation project and how they would get funding for that. And on some of them we’d let them work together, which in this day and age, you know, where people work remotely and we’re in different offices across state; it was kind of cool ’cause they had to collaborate in that way to on their own time come together to sort of do group projects as well.

Allan Rutter (13:50):
So about how long does this take and what roughly does it cost?

Jim Cline (13:56):
The average cost for the entire program runs on the order of $30,000 in total tuition fees, everything that you pay to the university, which is about the going cost for these. We have talked to TxDOT–and four of our students were from TxDOT–although we have had a lot of interest from engineering firms as well. And the intervening period, I’ve talked to three firm representatives this last week. And so there are tuition programs specifically has one that will cover almost all of the cost. And a lot of consulting firms and other agencies have tuition programs. There are ways to get help. And so I think for a student looks at it and says, “wow, that’s gonna be just too hard a pill to swallow.” There are options to get help. My son had to go through and earn one of these. And so we talked to him a lot about all these different options. It takes about two years, it covers a couple of courses every semester, some over the summer and should be again completed within that two-year period.

Allan Rutter (14:58):
So, you guys had mentioned office hours, class interaction that happened, and you’ve talked a little bit about what happens there. Anything else you wanna mention about how that regular interaction was part of, or how critical it was to the actual course content?

Brianne Glover (15:17):
So I really think it was helpful, I think, not just for them to ask questions because you know, the course content is structured in a really neat way, like I said, with all the different types of media. But again, they don’t get to interact and ask those questions, right? And so I think that those office hours were very important to allow them to get that feedback on their understanding of the material. But also just to discuss it, you know, to have a discussion on the topic and how it relates to things that are happening in their careers in the world when current events, that sort of thing. And to interact with each other as well. I think I really learned almost as much from them, you know, as they might have taken away from the course.

Jim Cline (15:53):
The model that I thought of–and the way I explained it to students–was that if this was a regular class, you’d go through the lecture, and then this is as if the instructor said, “you know what, I’m gonna hang out here for another hour afterwards. If you’ve got any questions, you’re welcome to hang around and ask and we can go through that.” And so it provided that office hour, that extra time, that was optional, right? We didn’t take attendance during that, but we did provide that opportunity, like Brianne said, to interact. And I learned a lot from the students. Again, as she said, they were from all over the state, all different experience levels, they all brought different things to the table and it was a positive learning experience for me in addition to what we were able to provide for the students.

Allan Rutter (16:36):
So if some of our listeners thus far are saying to themselves, wow, this sounds like a really interesting idea, not too much of a lift in terms of time and resources, how would you guys close the sale for these folks? What are the biggest benefits of participating in this program?

Brianne Glover (16:55):
I think that one of the biggest takeaways is that, you know, you don’t have to uproot your whole life, right? To quit your job and move somewhere to go to grad school, which is what I had to do back in the day. And that, you know, it allows you to do it on your own time and to continue in your career at the same time. I think that’s a huge plus. And all of the instructors bring something different. They all have a different background and different experiences and, you know, that real-world experience. And I think it really just all came together to create a fabulous program.

Jim Cline (17:27):
And really, in addition to that, having that next level of education is so helpful. When the marketplace gets more competitive, it gives you that opportunity to stand out and have those skills that you need for the next level up. ‘Cause so many of us, and me included, learned a lot of this stuff as we went. How do you manage different issues, employee issues, things like that, city councils, I mean, how do you deal with them? How do you work with other agencies? And if you know some of those things and you’ve already cracked the code on those, you can really help an organization succeed.

Allan Rutter (18:02):
Yeah, it strikes me that the kind of thing this does is at least twofold. One, because your students are sort of mid-career or post undergrad, they’re gonna be a little more motivated to actually do the work. You’ve made the commitment of both time and resources. And I think, Jim, what you had just mentioned is by being able to bring your experience of this happened to me this week and talk it through and apply your content to your life, that’s such a benefit that’s different from a standard graduate program that you’re doing just two years after your earlier school.

Jim Cline (18:41):
Well, my experience when I earned my master’s degree–I just stayed, right? I mean, well, okay, in 1985 the job market stunk. So, it was not a hard decision to make. But if I was having to go back through and wanted to be competitive in the workplace, but had gone to work right now, the job market has been so good for engineers that a lot of people are not staying to go to graduate school. And when you step back and look you say, wow, this would make me more competitive, it provides that opportunity and gives you that leg up.

Brianne Glover (19:12):
Yeah. So I did it. I finished my bachelor’s, I worked for an engineering consulting firm for four or five years and then I quit my job and went to a graduate program, which is very hard to do–to go back once you’ve invested in your career and have made it those few years down the road. And so I think, man, if something like this had been around, it would’ve been great.

Jim Cline (19:31):
That’s one of the reasons I didn’t go back to get another degree beyond the master’s program. I had three kids; poverty was not an option. It gives you a chance to keep your income on top of your job, right? And build your career so you’re not taking a step back and able to continue to progress. Now it’s hard work and students would tell us, you know, this is a lot and it stacks up and there’s a lot that’s happening. But one of the things we try to do is be very understanding of how life happens. We try to coordinate a little bit between the classes so that we don’t have products due the same day. So, it staggers things out a little bit for the students. And then, you know, when we did the capstone class, we gave them the calendar for the full two semesters.

Jim Cline (20:13):
At the beginning of the first semester, there was … every deadline that was out there was very clear so you could plan ahead. We made sure that when they left at the end of the fall semester, they had everything they needed to get started if they wanted to start between the fall and the spring semester. And so we tried very hard, all the instructors did, to make this as practical as it could be for people we know that have kids, spouses, jobs, elderly parents–I mean all those things. And like I said, life happens and how do you allow people the opportunity, and provide … facilitate that happening? And that’s one of the things that I think makes this program stand out is that you don’t have to set life aside to make this happen.

Allan Rutter (20:58):
I think the other thing that I’m hearing is that while this is an awful lot of work, it also is a full master’s degree. It’s not a certificate. So that seems to me to at least make the level of effort worthwhile.

Brianne Glover (21:12):
Aggie ring included.

Jim Cline (21:13):
<laugh>, yes. It doesn’t say “asynchronous engineering degree,” it just says from the College of Engineering you have a master of engineering degree. So it’s not qualified in any manner. It’s the same as if you were here in residence.

Allan Rutter (21:26):
So where do people go to learn more about the program?

Brianne Glover (21:30):
I think the first place to start would be the website. You can go to [https://engineering.tamu.edu/mtde/academics/degrees/graduate/meng-transportation/index.html], so that’s the Multidisciplinary Engineering Department. Or you know, you can just Google T-A-M-U-M-T-D-E, and it’ll get you there.

Allan Rutter (21:48):
And what’s the timing on being in the next cohort for this degree program?

Jim Cline (21:55):
The next cohort likely to be August of 2025. And I’m happy to talk to any prospective student. In fact, we were at the short course last week trying to talk to a few people and we’ll be happy to reach out to students, and they’re more than welcome to reach out to me here at TTI, and I’ll be happy to guide ’em in the right direction; and in terms of how to apply and give some more detail and talk about what we see as the benefits of the program.

Brianne Glover (22:22):
And I’ll second that–happy to chat if anybody wants more information.

Allan Rutter (22:26):
So, one of the things we can do, we’ll include links to where to find the formal information about the coursework in the show notes about the episode. And now, it’s clear from this discussion that you guys got a lot out of these classes and so did your students. But beyond this classwork, what are the reasons that the two of you show up for work every day? Brianne, let’s start with you.

Brianne Glover (22:49):
So, I’d have to say the people I work with. I know that probably sounds a little cliche, but I really enjoy working with the group of folks that I get to come to work and see every day. They’re always asking questions and looking for the next project or the next unique and new topic to dig into. And it keeps things interesting.

Jim Cline (23:11):
I really like the broad variety of things that I get to do at TTI. There’s never a dull moment, right? And we’re picked on different projects. I mean, I personally am working on things … it could be for a climate center, it could be for the National Lab in Los Alamos, TxDOT in West Texas–TxDOT all over the state. And we get to work so closely with so many people that it’s just such a positive experience. I tell people often that one of the best parts about TTI is when I walk into a room full of people … most of ’em are smarter than I am. And it’s always really great to be able to be around so many smart people that know what they’re doing, that contribute, and it’s a professional, kind work environment, and we enjoy it. So it’s been very positive for me personally. And this course just adds to it. You know, the ability to give back to students and to contribute to that really is a big plus. And I’ve talked to all the instructors, we all feel the same way. I mean, we like the idea of being able to contribute to education, to students and help them and again, share some of those things we’ve learned that can maybe make their path a little bit simpler.

Allan Rutter (24:17):
Well, that’s fabulous. Thanks for the information about it and thanks for participating today.

Brianne Glover (24:22):
Thanks for having us.

Jim Cline (24:23):
And happy to help. Any student has questions, welcome to reach out to us.

Allan Rutter (24:28):
We’ve learned from the first five graduates of the new Masters of Engineering for Transportation Professionals that it’s never too late to start something new. If you are interested in your own new start in this mid-career engineering program, please check our show notes for links to more information about this degree and how to get involved.

Allan Rutter (24:49):
Thanks for listening. Please take just a minute to give us a review, subscribe and share this episode, and please join us next time for another conversation about getting ourselves and the stuff we need from point A to point B. Thinking Transportation is a production of the Texas A&M Transportation Institute, a member of The Texas A&M University System. The show is edited and produced by Chris Pourteau. I’m your host, Allan Rutter. Thanks again for listening. We’ll see you next time.